Seems they missed 1 Cor 12:3 where we can only say Jesus is Lord by the Holy Spirit!
So this brings up a couple of questions, if someone says Jesus is Lord and are saying this only because of the Holy Spirit in them then how are they not to be considered a brother and treated as such?
Secondly if the Holy Spirit is gone and I find no text in the Bible to back that up, how can we even say Jesus is Lord and not make 1 Cor 12:3 to be false?
Jesus spoke in detail about the life and choices the woman at the well made, pointing out she had 5 husbands.
This was a clear opertunity for him to teach her that she must return to her first husband but he did not.
So the question is why the hardline CoC teach something that apparently Jesus himself did not teach?!
Ezra 10 if you do not know involves the Jewish people sending the foreign wives and the children of those marriages away. It was done to maintain the religious purity and the racial purity of the Jewish people.
Because there is no clear answer to what to do with someone in a second marriage the hardline CoC have decided that Ezra 10 is the example we must follow and that all marriages except the first are unauthorized.
But consider this, Jesus called the woman’s 5 husbands by the name husband, he did not say that 4 of the 5 where not authorized.
So Jesus had the perfect chance to teach what the hardline CoC teach but he did not.
Could it be that the keeper of the perfect truth have a few warts after all and are simply a small splinter group?
It would seem so!
I recently went to visit my old friend Shawn at Royce City’s CoC website. And I pulled from it why the radical CoC conservatives try and force people to leave their second marriage and childern of that marriage and return to the first.
What I read shocked and surprised me but then again it should not have, lets take a look at the scriptures and how they put them together and see it from another view that is not driven by being the toughest pharisee on the block mindset:
Here is the link to the full text so that I can’t be accused of altering the text: http://roysecitycoc.org/divorce_remarriage.htm
First I agree marriage should only end of the other has committed adultery, however I also know that Jesus said if you think it, you have already done it so keep that in mind when you read conditions for something!
Mathew 5:28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
While the greek word for adultery and fornication are different words, they mean the same basic thing, violation of the sexual side of the marriage. So does the partner have grounds for divorce in the case of a porn addiction? I would answer yes they do since God’s standard is the mind itself per Jesus comments.
Now to the crux of the issue, the CoC hypercons believe you must leave your current spouse and return to a prievious partner based on Ezra 10, here is Ezra 10 in total:
Ezra 10:1 While Ezra was praying and confessing, weeping and throwing himself down before the house of God, a large crowd of Israelites—men, women and children—gathered around him. They too wept bitterly. 2 Then Shecaniah son of Jehiel, one of the descendants of Elam, said to Ezra, “We have been unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women from the peoples around us. But in spite of this, there is still hope for Israel. 3 Now let us make a covenant before our God to send away all these women and their children, in accordance with the counsel of my lord and of those who fear the commands of our God. Let it be done according to the Law. 4 Rise up; this matter is in your hands. We will support you, so take courage and do it.”
5 So Ezra rose up and put the leading priests and Levites and all Israel under oath to do what had been suggested. And they took the oath. 6 Then Ezra withdrew from before the house of God and went to the room of Jehohanan son of Eliashib. While he was there, he ate no food and drank no water, because he continued to mourn over the unfaithfulness of the exiles.
7 A proclamation was then issued throughout Judah and Jerusalem for all the exiles to assemble in Jerusalem. 8 Anyone who failed to appear within three days would forfeit all his property, in accordance with the decision of the officials and elders, and would himself be expelled from the assembly of the exiles.
9 Within the three days, all the men of Judah and Benjamin had gathered in Jerusalem. And on the twentieth day of the ninth month, all the people were sitting in the square before the house of God, greatly distressed by the occasion and because of the rain. 10 Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, “You have been unfaithful; you have married foreign women, adding to Israel’s guilt. 11 Now make confession to the LORD, the God of your fathers, and do his will. Separate yourselves from the peoples around you and from your foreign wives.”
12 The whole assembly responded with a loud voice: “You are right! We must do as you say. 13 But there are many people here and it is the rainy season; so we cannot stand outside. Besides, this matter cannot be taken care of in a day or two, because we have sinned greatly in this thing. 14 Let our officials act for the whole assembly. Then let everyone in our towns who has married a foreign woman come at a set time, along with the elders and judges of each town, until the fierce anger of our God in this matter is turned away from us.” 15 Only Jonathan son of Asahel and Jahzeiah son of Tikvah, supported by Meshullam and Shabbethai the Levite, opposed this.
16 So the exiles did as was proposed. Ezra the priest selected men who were family heads, one from each family division, and all of them designated by name. On the first day of the tenth month they sat down to investigate the cases, 17 and by the first day of the first month they finished dealing with all the men who had married foreign women.
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The bottom part of Chapter ten simply lists the guilty of the acts above, now does this apply to New Testament scripture? Frankly it absolutely does not! First let us consider the issues they were dealing with, purity of the race and religion:
Ezra 9:1 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, “The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness.”
In the above the issues they were dealing with are purity of race and religion, note that it speaks of detestable practices when talking about the foreigners , thus we see they are in violation of the Jewish law, if not those people would not have been spoken of in that manner, thus we can conclude they are not praticing Jews! We have a situation where the purity of the Jewish faith and the race itself are in danger. God told them not to do this and they have done it and decide they should return the foreign people to their former lands.
Ah you say see, there ya go, the hypercon CoC are right on the mark, but wait, if that is true then why are not all interracial marriages dissolved since the race of each would be polluted would it not? Acts 10 clearly shows that race is no longer a factor in God’s eyes since he accepts believers who are gentiles. So race is no longer an issue to us as believers. How about religious purity? Do CoC preachers tell their people to leave others who are not CoC? The Jews sent non-jews away, since the hypercon CoC see themselves as the only Christians should they not also do the same just as the Jews did? Well no scripture says we are to stay with people who are non-believers if they will stay, we do so in the hope of winning them to Christ according to 1 Cor .
So to restate, Ezra 10 is a result of racial and religious purity, it is shown in Ezra 10. Clearly God accepts gentiles ie. non-Jews into the family per Acts 10, clearly we are told to stay with non-believers so that religous purity is no longer valid per 1 Cor 7:10-16, thus both reasons for sending away a spouse are gone!
Ah but what do we do about those second marriages? The answer is nothing, God does not say anything about a second marriage in scripture except in death, but Jesus clearly forgave an adulteress woman, so do we raise remarriage to the level of blasphemy against the Spirit and make it an unforgiveable sin when God does not? After all in the hypercon world you go to hell for staying with that second spouse because you are an adulterer. So in Hypercon CoC if you go and kill your spouse you can still go to Heaven if you don’t and die first you go to hell if the marriage disolved for non-adultry reasons!
I hope you see the two real reasons that the Jews sent their wives and offspring away, racial purity and religious purity, are canceled out in the New Testament. Thus to force people to return to former spouses are contradicting scripture in the new testament and applying Old Testament out of context, there is nothing about any of those people being a second marriage, so first marriages were also returned to their former lands!. But this shows perfectly the pharisee mindset of the hypercon, what do we do about this second marriage it is not really covered in the New Testament to give a clear answer, wait lets take this example about race and religious purity and apply it to nulify the marriages and return to the original covenant. That will get us out of the bind we have and allow us to give an answer and continues our pharisical walk in front of others!
Jesus said that if you commit adultery you have given grounds for divorce, if one or both people have remarried they have had sexual relations with another person and thus have given the grounds for divorce. So how did they get here and connect these disconnected dots? My guess is the need to give an answer drove them to this, thus if I have built a doctrine that is focused on giving an answer to prove I am right then to not have a clear answer to something like divorce and a second marriage is clearly not going to cut it when you have a theology that is based in having all the answers directly from the original church. To simply say I do not know makes this theology nul and void, thus that is not an option, it is better to crush others then to admit you do not know for sure!
Contrast this:
Mathew 11:29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
verses
Luke 11:46Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
Now go tell the wife of a man who just left because of hypercon coc teaching and explain to her children that light burden again! I am beginning to understand why Jesus cleared the temple with a whip!
Got a chance to listen to James Oldfield of the Local Danville CoC and while I was cleaning up a mess from my Dogs I heard him Quote 2 Cor 4:1-6.
2 Cor 4:1-6:1Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”[a]made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Now how is it that an organization who uses hidden camera’s to record people for rebroadcast can claim to have renounced deceptive ways? Or would this fall under the category of righteous Judgment?
I’ve been real busy with a major project so my posts have been few, I hope to be a more frequent poster soon!
I sat down and watched my favorite comedian in action last night Mr. Johnny Robertson, oh not disrespecting him, he was absolutely full of himself and funny as could be!
First what I agree with Mr. Robertson on, 2.6 million to teach a faith based state sponsored religion that was formed by science is just as wrong as us forcing Christ down the throats of the children without the parents consent. Especially when other area’s of the state budget are being effected. The Museum is a want not a need and we need to be in need mode now.
I firmly believe that the holes in Darwinism and The Big Bang should be talked about openly. We have no actual complete set of evolutionary evidence of a move of a species to another form, Ape to man for instance there is no clear link. Big Bang there is no firm explanation of where the stuff comes from that blew up. I have heard all kinds of theory’s and a theory is a guess in reality since none of it can actually be duplicated in a lab.
Secondly Mr. Robertson is correct, there is no separation of Church and State in the Constitution, anyone who has actually read the thing will know that, this shows you how many have believed the lie that has been taught by the atheists. Thomas Jefferson and all the founding father’s goal in regards to religion was to make sure that the State could not control and dictate to religion, that there would be no state sponsored religion. Evolution and the Big Bang are in fact the things that are unconstitutional. We have allowed theory or a guess to be taught as facts to the people in public schools. Both sides of the isle should have their day in the class to present their views and evidence as to what they believe and why. As it stands now the Science Religion has stopped all negative speech that would counter what they believe in their faith to be true, this is in fact a religion, not science! The bottom line is you have to have faith there is no God as much as you have to have faith there is a God. I know I was once an atheist!
Now to the parts I disagreed with. Johnny while chastising the caller who falsely claimed separation of church and state or shortly their after, once again blamed denominations as the root cause of atheism, but lets examine this.
He pointed to the Pope to say that others have fallen away from Christ because of him, and I will assume that if we all would only turn to CoC teachings that all atheism would die in his mind. However in another show this week he also told about losing 2/3s of his members who left for various reasons that he did not detail , and I know for a fact that one of his main people who used to be on TV left him and the faith totally and does not believe in the Bible as the truth! Now how is it that he claims to have the answer when the evidence shows that he is in fact part of the problem it appears. If this were not true then would there not be such a high attrition rate? Yes I know some seed falls argument, but I also know that much of this came from Mr. Robertson’s my way or the hell way approach to theology.
The control issues are rooted in a childhood that was out of his control, when a child feels unsafe and worries they tend to grow up and try to control the environment around them, this I believe is part of what drives this my way is the only way approach when clearly there were differences in Paul’s teach and the council, they in fact were teaching differently on food issues. Go get yourself a good historical time line and follow the books as they were written instead of where they are placed in the Bible and you will see that after the council’s letter about not eating food served to idols that Paul is teaching that Idols are nothing and the food is fine except you be with someone who does believe it is important then you don’t eat it!
Also to claim that denominations are the root cause of atheism is a pointless comment, you can no more prove that someone is atheist because of denominations then you can prove man came from an ape. I know of someone who does not believe in God of the Bible because of the control issues that came from the environment she was raised in. It was not the church version that caused it, it was the graceless attitude of those who were in the building, who threatened them with the wrath of God etc. I believe that the hypercon CoC would have the same effect on them if not more so. Since the attitude and actions would be the same, the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law, they would have been in the same boat they are now and clearly some of the 200 who left the local CoC are also in that same boat. That’s because the letter kills and the spirit brings life!
Also he made a clear comment about how we need to take the Bible literally, however in some of his shows he himself has taken passages and placed different meanings on them based on figures of speech, now I am no bible scholar but isn’t calling for literal view of the Bible while teaching parts of it to be figurative speech hypicritical in nature? And since an Atheist would apply critical thinking would they not see this contradiction and be more confused or worse even more set in their thinking against the Bible?
Finaly a small matter, one called he knew named Mr. Carter called up to challenge him to a debate, he flatly refused because Mr. Carter does not have the credentials to debate him???? What PHD does Mr. Roberson have himself? And I really thought the process of debate was to show false teaching, could it be that unless the debate allows Mr. Robertson to attack another Church or religious group he is not interested. So based on this information it would seem the debates are not about false teaching but simply a way to cause division in other bodies of religious people. And please note I consider Atheist to practice a form of faith thus they also are religious, believing themselves to be their only God.
But it was a funny show!
I find it interesting that this photo appears to show a rocket fired from inside the city and really near what appears to be appartment buildings. The Islamic groups have consistantly used civilians as targets in Israel, why is it that the press does not ask them the hard questions, like “Why do you place your military stores near population centers”, instead we here over and over how the Israelies have killed civilians etc.
This game has to be stopped once and for all and the press are really to blame for the deaths of civilians in this conflict. If Hamas and groups like that did not get great press from the deaths of their civilians while hiding their weapons near those civilians they would stop using them as shields at least for the good press.
This game that gets civilains used as political pawns is wrong and must be stopped once and for all!
I have not had time to go through all his video but after I followed a link from the Knight Shift post I found the 5th in the series, I listened long enough to hear him speak about Jesus not being real, and that Paul never talked about Jesus as human.
David Mills is either speaking falsely on purpose or he missed the book of Romans where Paul talks about Jesus resurrection, something you can’t do unless you have died, and you can’t do that unless you were alive. Paul also speaks about Jesus coming from the line of David, David was human also.
So it appears that Atheism itself is finally becoming a fully man made religion that is going to ignore facts to grow itself. And because public schools teach the atheist’s line of thinking in the area of the universe and creation they have in fact violated the constitution and have put in place a state sponsored religion of faith Let them show us an experiment where they bring one element into existence from nothing purely through natural events.
They can not, but today the Big Bang as it was called originally is taught as fact even though they can not recreate it.
Our children are being taught a religion that is state sponsored and because scientist have a bitter root against the church they have done everything they can to silence intelligent design in schools.
After once again hearing Mr. Roberson haul out this passage for the hundredth time as proof he finally is living in the light and full of the truth and in the true church I decided to do a little looking into the passage and here is what I have observed:
First and what is very important is that churches of Christ does not capitalize Churches, this simple common sense fact rules out it being used as a name of a church or churches, I fully believe that God would know how to capitalize in English as any other language.
Secondly ekklhsiai is the word the passage uses for Churches in the greek, the following passages also use this version of the word:
| (1.00) | Act 16:5 |
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So the churches were being strengthened in the faith and were increasing in number every day. 1 |
| (1.00) | Rom 16:16 |
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Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you. |
| (0.87) | 1Co 11:16 |
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If anyone intends to quarrel about this, we have no other practice, nor do the churches of God. |
| (0.75) | Rom 16:4 |
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who risked their own necks for my life. Not only I, but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. |
| (0.75) | 1Co 16:19 |
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The churches in the province of Asia 1 send greetings to you. Aquila and Prisca 2 greet 3 you warmly in the Lord, with the church that meets in their house. |
| (0.63) | Rev 2:23 |
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Furthermore, I will strike her followers 1 with a deadly disease, 2 and then all the churches will know that I am the one who searches minds and hearts. I will repay 3 each one of you 4 what your deeds deserve. 5 |
| (0.50) | Rev 1:20 |
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The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and the seven golden lampstands is this: 1 The seven stars are the angels 2 of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. |
Now what I find interesting is the usage of churches of the Gentiles! Along with the churches that meet in the homes of Aquila and Prisca, both passages do not list churches of Christ nor mention his name when talking about the church, thus based on this additional information from scripture is Romans 16:16 really the name of the church, the answer is no, but if you wish to answer yes that it is in fact the official name of The Church, then The Church of the Gentiles is also an official name, it does after all use the same form of the greek word for church. Or we can take the passage for what it really is a greeting from all those who belong to Christ who make up The Church. And of course there is that small matter of the Holy Kiss that somehow seems to not be an important command simply because we find it unmanly in our western version of Christianity, where does it say in the Bible we no longer are to do that greeting? Oh but I am nit picking to bring it up arn’t I, but who decides what is a nit that is picked and what is a command that if broken sends us to hell?
Finally I wish to point out a later passage Romans 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.
Now for those in the Church of Christ Denomination who think I am picking on them only, let me say the above is for all people to hear and heed, one only has to pick up a copy of church history and you will read over and over where splits take place and power is struggled over involving various issues. Did God really intend for this to be, I believe not, he did call for us to live in unity and this unity will not come from simply kicking out anyone who does not believe as we do but unity comes in living with each others faults and weakness and this is the matter that the church and it’s people have forgotten over time.
Imposing ones will and beliefs is something for the Islamic’s to do, not for Christians, we grow and concure not from opressing all those who oppose us but by loving each other in agape the same agape that hung on the cross and called for their sins to not be held against them because they did not k now what they were doing!
Where is Agape? And how is your Agape meter today? Do you love your enemies and pray for God to bless them, do you give them a drink of water in his name? Do you feed them? Or do you simply kick them out of your organizations and ignore them when passing them on the street?
I am asurred of unity in a church of one, but God called on us to live in relationship with love being the highest goal!
I recently heard that the Holy Spirit was no longer doing anything usefull for God’s people, that the gifts are gone etc.
So my question is simply this, how is the KJV an inspired translation or for that matter any of the translations from the original languages since the Holy Spirit’s ability to guide us is gone and we are left to are own metality to desern the truth?
If the Holy Spirit’s involvment with people is finished then anyone can translate the Bible and it will be as accuate as what we currently have in the King’s English!
I personally read all the translations when I am researching passages and then go to the Greek meanings of key words to maximise the ability to know and understand the meaning and then allow the Holy Spirit to guide me towards the real truth.
Caught part of the Parker Robertson debate and I must say that putting up on the screen that Robertson was paying for Parker and other Parker vs Truth comments while he was speaking was at best poor taste and at worst attempting to tilt the views of the people watching in an underhanded mannor.
Especially when we all know that Johnny was very happy to have someone to argue with!
I’ll go through the debate and comment as time permits this week.
Something Johnny spoke about recently got me to wondering. He quoted that John did not know who Jesus was based on his quoting the book of John. That it was the holy spirit falling on Jesus that allowed John to know who Jesus was:
John 1:29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”
32Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”
Now what I find interesting in the above passage is that it does not mesh well with one other account of this event. Lets take a look at some additional passages:
Matthew 3:13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
Notice in the above passage the event of the Baptism comes after John’s conversation with Jesus about needing to be baptized by Jesus! It is in fact reverse of the account in John!
Mark 1:9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Mark adds nothing to this difference as he gives no record of verbal interaction with John.
Luke 1:39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”
A couple of interesting things here, first John reacted to Mary’s voice even from the womb, and secondly Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit per the scripture!
Luke 3:21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Again no help as to the conversation between Jesus and John, and we see that he has Jesus praying when the Holy Spirit falls.
So we have two accounts, one that shows John not knowing who Jesus was, and another that said he did know him before he baptized him. Also how does the evidence that John knew Mary’s voice and that they were cousins. I’d say it’s really a toss up but I would lean towards him knowing who Jesus was before he baptized him!
I saw that Johnny added James 1:25 as a link to 1 Cor 13:10 for those who do not have a Bible handy here is what the NIV translation says online:
James 1:25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.
1 Cor 13:10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
Now in James 1:25 we find perfect used to describe the law, it is not itself the law of liberty but an attribute of that entity, Mr. Robertson takes an adj and attempts to turn it into a noun. In both cases it is used as a descriptive. If for instance the word green had been used instead of perfect, we would be arguing that green is the Bible or Jesus when in fact I do not argue that perfect means Jesus but the completion of the work he is doing in us all that will be finished when we are face to face with God. Thus the Law of Liberty is the Bible, the Law of liberty is not in 1 Cor. 13:10 never has been, and never ever ever ever will be!
Mr. Robertson makes it sound good when you listen to it, but when you realize that “teleios” or “teleion” is after all an adjective and not a noun you begin to realize he was reaching by including this at best and at worst he was attempting to trick the listeners into believing they are talking about the same thing when they are not. Just like a green car and a green leaf have nothing in common except they are green!
Recently Mr Robertson started using a new tactic and had his son show up at a location that was unnamed that is a Baptist Church in Martinsville. I am curious does anyone know why he did not show the Pastor’s face or the name of the Church?
Anyway Johnny’s son professed to be with an organization called Religious Review or some such nonsense. Now I did a quick web search and found nothing about the organization so I will conclude for the moment that this is part of the deception that he professes to use out of the old testament.
He also asked a question of what is wrong with investigative reporting? First from what I have seen there is nothing covering the disunity in the Churches of Christ denomination, I have read reports of splits over everything from sunday school to kitchens in the buildings. When is the “Investigative Reporter” going to cover those issues of disunity??????? Or is the Hiprocrocy and false statements as a cover going to continue?
The Unity of the Church should be addressed but it needs to be done from a honest position involving all churches and excluding none and not from a position that has a false and hidden agenda at it’s root!
Based on visiting Corey’s site http://coreydavis.wordpress.com/ , I see he is attempting once again to spin that passage using 2 Tim. 3:17’s perfect that is the Greek word artios in replacement for teleios that is used in 1 Cor 13:10. While this successfully muddies the waters for some, it is clearly a different word used incorrectly by the King James Version! teleios is used in the following verses in the following forms and defined:
Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
teleion
| 1Co 13:10 |
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but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. |
| Jam 1:4 |
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And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you will be perfect and complete, not deficient in anything. |
| Col 1:28 |
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We proclaim him by instructing and teaching all people with all wisdom so that we may present every person mature in Christ. |
| Jam 1:17 |
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All generous giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change. |
| Rom 12:2 |
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Do not be conformed to this present world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God – what is good and well-pleasing and perfect. |
| Eph 4:13 |
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until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God – a mature person, attaining to the measure of Christ’s full stature. |
| Jam 1:25 |
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But the one who peers into the perfect law of liberty and fixes his attention there, and does not become a forgetful listener but one who lives it out – he will be blessed in what he does. |
teleioi
| Mat 5:48 |
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So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. |
| 1Co 14:20 |
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Brothers and sisters,do not be children in your thinking. Instead, be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. |
| Phi 3:15 |
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Therefore let those of us who are “perfect” embrace this point of view. If you think otherwise, God will reveal to you the error of your ways. |
| Jam 1:4 |
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And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you will be perfect and complete, not deficient in anything. |
| Col 4:12 |
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Epaphras, who is one of you and a slave of Christ, greets you. He is always struggling in prayer on your behalf, so that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God. |
teleiov
| Mat 5:48 |
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So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. |
| Jam 3:2 |
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For we all stumble in many ways. If someone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect individual, able to control the entire body as well. |
| Mat 19:21 |
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Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” |
teleioiv
| 1Co 2:6 |
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Now we do speak wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are perishing. |
teleiwn
| Heb 5:14 |
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But solid food is for the mature, whose perceptions are trained by practice to discern both good and evil. |
teleioterav
| Heb 9:11 |
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But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, |
teleia
| 1Jo 4:18 |
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There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears punishment has not been perfected in love. |
Now as we read through all those passages, you will notice that a majority of them talk about maturity, so I agree with Cory that perfect does not talk about Jesus directly, but I strongly disagree that this is the christian cannon and I believe the only reason he sees it as such his is bias towards the doctrine his denomination has taught him!! First off the completed and agreed to cannon did not take place until 300+AD thus the completion would be more then 100 years past Paul’s death. Yet Paul was going to see this perfection himself! In more then one passage above we see references to God Mat 5:48 is clear that we are to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.
So what is this he is talking about in Corinthians 13:10? The key to this passage is still verse 12:
1 Cor 13:12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
Now if you research the term face to face you will discover that this phrase is never ever ever ever ever used in context of a book but a person to person or person to God encounter. Here are the passages:
Now there is not one reference about looking at anything but a face either human in the case of 3 John 1:14 for instance and Deu 5:4 God talking to men also there is no instance of the other passages talking about looking at themselves either. So at least Paul is not talking about a book or codex or papyrus but a face that is either human or God’s. Now can we assume he is talking about seeing himself in the term face to face because we see he is talking about looking into a glass and a reflection? Perhaps but not likely, because the second part of this talks about knowing as he is known. So we can rule out that he is talking about knowing himself as he also knows himself, but about how someone else knows him! This is where I consider him to be talking about God. Is the Bible going to know him? To make that stretch is a bit much, it is even more when we add the phrase face to face. He talks about knowing at a deeper level and combined with the maturity or perfection like God’s perfection that happens somewhere in the future it is my conclusion that he is not talking about having the complete Bible but being before God face to face and knowing as God knows him.
Thus I agree that perfect is not Jesus but I also know that the perfect is not the Bible either, unless you are going to pull out your talking Bible and have it tell me all your faults that you do not even know are there and also your strengths you do not even know are there!
Nicene Creed was put in place around 325 AD. During this time and afterwards the Bible itself was being put together. So in my mind the Nicene Creed itself would have influanced the choices of what books to allow in and what to disallow into the Bible.
Thus my conclusion is that the Bible itself was influenced by a Catholic Creed,so how can anyone claim no creeds but Christ when the same people who developed the Nicene Creed also had input into the building of the Bible?
For instance: In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of exactly the same books as what would become the New Testament canon, and he used the word “canonized” (kanonizomena) in regards to them.
The African Synod of Hippo, in 393, approved the New Testament, as it stands today, together with the Septuagint books, a decision that was repeated by Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419. These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed.
Both of the above are after 325AD and the Council that created the Nicene Creed met in 325AD:
The First Council of Nicaea was held in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey), convoked by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in 325 AD, was the first Ecumenical council of the Christian Church, and most significantly resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine, called the Nicene Creed.
So how does anyone claim no influance from a creed when a creed existed before the finished constrution of the modern bible?
If you have a topic you are wishing to talk about and would like a post opened on it, place it here. I will read it and talk to you about it and then if it makes sense open it up. Biblical content preferable but I am open to world events etc.
Also thanks to all for keeping things civil and I appreciate you! 😉
Thanks,
WIL
After reading a recent “plea” for dialog by a CoC member, I have to ask, when was the last time that you as a CoC member learned something new about the Bible from a non-CoC member that you adopted?
Since the call is for dialog should it not be that both sides learn from each other and if that is the case is there really a call for dialog?
Acts 21:17When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”
26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.
Hebrews 6 in dealing with those who violate the authority of God and substitute another method of payment for sins were told they could not return because you could not re-crucify Christ to yourselves.
You will never find an example of anyone ever being re-baptized in Jesus name after having done so the first time.
The only example of re-baptism you will find is the re-baptism of anyone was in Acts 19 and they had been baptized under John’s baptism, presumably after John’s death.
If scripture does not include an example of someone who was baptized in Jesus name being re-baptized how is it that the Church of Christ denomination is willing to speak where the Bible does not speak.
The simple answer is that they ARE a denomination in denial who’s DNA is to pull people from other denominations.
All denominations have there man made creeds that can not be substantiated through the word and this one claims to speak only where the Bible speaks.
Well it appears that myth has also be exposed!
Dialog with the Church of Christ 